Senator FAULKNER-I do not intend to delay the committee too long, partly because I have other committee responsibilities this evening. I just wanted to canvass one issue with you, Commissioner, if I could. I am not sure whether it is best to direct these questions to you or to one of your officers, but no doubt you will assist me with that. I wonder if you could inform the committee whether tracking devices or listening devices were used as part of the disruption program in relation to the anti-people-smuggling activities in Indonesia. I mean this in the context of whether these devices might have been placed in suspected illegal entry vessels.

Commissioner Keelty-If I can take that on notice, I can get an answer back for you.

Senator FAULKNER-Were you meaning this evening?

Commissioner Keelty-I think somebody has just left to make a phone call. We can try to get an answer this evening.

Senator FAULKNER-I thought it was possible that you personally may have had some knowledge of this. I accept it if you do not. I do accept it if you are not in a position to say.

Commissioner Keelty-I am just getting a phone call made to the operational people to get an answer for you.

Senator FAULKNER-There are a few follow-up questions I would like to ask. My constraint is that I have other committee responsibilities this evening. Minister, I just wondered if you or the Commissioner could assist with the timing that might be involved. Could we do it in a matter of minutes or are we talking about a longer period?

Senator Ellison-It depends on whether it can be located. If you can continue with another line of questioning-

Senator FAULKNER-I appreciate that there are a lot of constraints in terms of the committee's time and I also accept that there are a lot of constraints in terms of the current functions and responsibilities of the AFP. I was only keen tonight, in this particular estimates round, to explore this issue and not at great length.

Commissioner Keelty-I am getting phone calls made. I just point out that the operational people involved in the Bali investigation are now back in Indonesia and we are just trying to get hold of them to get the detail.

Senator FAULKNER-You are saying that the officers you are contacting in relation to this are not currently in Australia?

Commissioner Keelty-That is what I am saying. The officers who would have knowledge of this are currently not in the country.

Senator FAULKNER-Understanding that, are you able to give the committee any information or at least, in the broad, indicate whether that has been a practice at this stage?

Commissioner Keelty-No, I cannot. I am not sure what they were doing in terms of the precise questions you asked. My initial response is that we would not have been involved in listening devices because I do not think it is permitted under the legislation.

Senator FAULKNER-I expected you to say that. I suppose I used the terminology 'tracking and listening devices' because I wanted to be assured that my question was broad enough so as to be satisfied with the response. While I do not understand the technical definition for tracking devices, I am not surprised to hear that you are able to rule out listening devices.

Senator Ellison-In the inquiries that we are making on this one question, there might be some other questions Senator Faulkner wants to ask which, again, we will have to take up with the people concerned. If Senator Faulkner wants to give us those questions, we can pursue them all together rather than go back in a series of calls to answer the questions as they come.

Senator FAULKNER-I accept that those who might be able to provide answers to these questions are currently involved in operations outside Australia. You would understand, Minister, that it becomes difficult to conduct long-distance questioning, and I do not want to do that. It is better if the small number of questions I have, which are dependent on the answers I receive-they are follow-up questions, if you like-are dealt with in a sensible way. As you would appreciate, any subsequent questions I have would be dependent on the answers I receive.

Senator Ellison-They could be couched in the form of interrogatories: if the answer is no then you ask a certain question, and if the answer is yes then you pursue it in a different way. That could be given to us in that form and we could go away and do that.

Senator FAULKNER-I appreciate that. The threshold question is-understanding that, Minister, and I do accept that-whether the commissioner or other witnesses are able to say whether tracking devices have been placed on suspected illegal entry vessels.

Senator Ellison-We have taken that on notice, and I think that should be clarified. I assume the question is whether they have been placed on these vessels by the AFP or by anyone else to the knowledge of the AFP. There are a number of interpretations.

Senator FAULKNER-I did not specify that, but the qualification you raise is the sort of follow-up question that would be logical to ask depending on the answer to the threshold question.

Senator Ellison-That is why it is important to take this on notice-because the people who know about this are the ones to ask.

Senator FAULKNER-I do not think we can do this by remote questioning and, frankly, I do not want to engage in an exercise where I interrupt through questioning people who are involved in important work in Indonesia, on the Bali investigation, hear a response and then ask another question. It is not the best way of dealing with these things. I think you would appreciate that. I hope you would accept that and I am sure the Commissioner and any other witnesses would. We do, from time to time, not only at this committee but also at other committees-for example, the foreign affairs committee-deal with issues where questions are directed to witnesses who are not only not at the table but also not in the country.

Senator Ellison-I do not think we can take it much further, Madam Chair.

CHAIR-We do seem to be at a point of stalemate.

Senator Ellison-In view of that, we are seeking that information. We will get back with that as soon as we can. If Senator Faulkner needs to pursue it in that manner, then we will have to wait for the response before further questions can be lodged or asked.

Senator FAULKNER-It is not a question of lodging.

Senator Ellison-Asked. The logistics are that either we can sit here waiting or we can pursue another line of questioning from somebody else and come back to Senator Faulkner.

Senator FAULKNER-If the committee does receive an answer to that question, I am happy to try to follow it through. If we are likely to find ourselves in a situation where subsequent questions are also referred to officers who are overseas, it is going to be an extraordinarily long and drawn-out process and certainly could not be concluded tonight. I think you would appreciate and understand that. We are best off doing it when we are in a position of being able to do it, which does not sound like it is going to be tonight.

Senator Ellison-In that case, tonight looks like being a very difficult proposition for-

Senator FAULKNER-Do you agree with what I am saying or not?

Senator Ellison-The choice is yours as to how you want to ask the questions, and if you need to follow them that way then, in view of people being out of the country, I do not think we will be able to do it tonight. We might be able to answer a couple of questions, but if we need to get back to them and do it in that manner it will be difficult to do.

Senator FAULKNER-I would hope that the Commissioner might be able to, in the broad, give an indication of whether this was the case, but if he is unable to I fear we have no alternative.

Senator Ellison-It has been taken on notice and we have to pursue it in that way.

CHAIR-No alternative to what, Senator Faulkner? I am sorry, I did not hear you.

Senator FAULKNER-No alternative other than to wait until another occasion when we can have a process where answers are provided by witnesses at the table.

CHAIR-Understanding what you are saying now, I think that is the case.

Senator FAULKNER-I accept what the Commissioner is saying, that the key witnesses are currently not here. I also, by the way, certainly accept that they are obviously undertaking important functions there. I do not particularly want to take their attention away from that or intrude in that very important work of the Commissioner's officers and agents.

CHAIR-I appreciate that. Assuming that the commissioner does receive a response to the telephone inquiries that have been made so far this evening-

Senator FAULKNER-In that circumstance, perhaps the committee secretariat could let me know in Finance and Public Administration, and we can make a judgment about where we go.


Senator FAULKNER-But I think the commissioner is indicating that there may be a reasonably quick response to that question. If so, I might be able to deal with it; I have other responsibilities.


Senator FAULKNER-Hence I was keen to try and conclude this by about now. The best laid plans! I am afraid we are not able to do it on this occasion.

CHAIR-At least to this point. All right, Senator Faulkner, we will advise you in Finance and Public Administration if and when an answer is received.

Senator Ellison-We will do that.

Senator FAULKNER-Thank you.

CHAIR-I know Senator Ludwig has questions to continue with, but I understand that Senator Collins has some questions which she would like to ask at this point.

Senator JACINTA COLLINS-Mr Keelty, I was hoping that you could update us on the pursuit of Abu Qussey.

Senator Ellison-The whereabouts of Abu Qussey?

Senator JACINTA COLLINS-The pursuit of. Mr Keelty has previously given evidence on this point before the Select Committee on a Certain Maritime Incident, and I am interested in an update of the state of play, to the extent to which Mr Keelty is able to comment without compromising related cases.

Commissioner Keelty-There are three arrest warrants which have been obtained for Abu Qussey.

Senator JACINTA COLLINS-This was the case, I think, when you last-

Commissioner Keelty-Yes. Those arrest warrants relate to three vessels organised by Qussey that were detected and seized by Australian authorities whilst endeavouring to smuggle 440 illegal immigrants to Australia. Qussey is presently incarcerated in Indonesia on immigration related matters and is due for release on 1 January 2003. As I understand it, before the Indonesian parliament equivalent this month there was to be a presentation of people-smuggling legislation which would have allowed dual criminality to exist. An Interpol red notice for Qussey's arrest has been issued and lodged with Interpol and provisional warrants have been forwarded to both Thailand and Hong Kong should Qussey endeavour to flee those countries upon release.

Senator JACINTA COLLINS-Why only Thailand and Hong Kong?

Commissioner Keelty-I would suggest that they are logical places to go to upon his release from detention in Jakarta.

Senator JACINTA COLLINS-Not if he is aware of this fact.

Commissioner Keelty-An Interpol red notice is international, so it goes to all countries.

Senator JACINTA COLLINS-Do you have any expectation that this legislation will be processed in Indonesia within the next few months?

Senator Ellison-I can answer that one better, because I had discussions with the Indonesian government when I was there just recently. My understanding was that they are pressing ahead with it. The issue is one for the Indonesian parliament, but the government certainly gave me the impression that it was a matter which they were going ahead with. As the commissioner has mentioned, we are hopeful that this will be in the very near future.

Senator JACINTA COLLINS-You mentioned the three warrants regarding the three vessels detected. Which were the three vessels? I was aware of two vessels that then became one vessel, which is now regarded as SIEVX. I would be interested if you could explain how the other two relate to his activities in terms of what we know about various SIEVs.

Commissioner Keelty-As I mentioned before, the only detail I have here-and if you want further detail I will take it on notice-is that the warrants relate to three vessels organised by Qussey that were detected and seized by Australian authorities while attempting to smuggle approximately 440 immigrants to Australia.

Senator JACINTA COLLINS-So presumably none of those three vessels was the SIEVX, which was not detected and seized. Is that a fair presumption?

Commissioner Keelty-That is right.

Senator JACINTA COLLINS-I remember on the last occasion when we discussed this there was some discussion as to what options there may be available to pursue Abu Qussey and whether it may be necessary to detect the location where the SIEVX sank, in terms of-in a crude sense-what your options might be. Have there been any further developments in that respect?

Commissioner Keelty-I have not got a progress report on that, but if anything has come to light I will inform the committee.

Senator JACINTA COLLINS-Let me see if I understood your evidence from the last occasion correctly first. I believe it was that, if this dual criminality legislation did not go through Indonesia, it may be necessary to establish the location of where the SIEVX actually sank, to determine whether it perhaps came within our jurisdiction in another legislative sense, which would enhance our case to pursue him. Is that a correct understanding?

Commissioner Keelty-I think that was a proposition at the time, if there was no prospect of dual criminality being established in Indonesia. But we might be talking at odds here, because in relation to SIEVX I think what I was talking about was the prospect of investigating whether there were any charges that could be laid against Qussey in respect of SIEVX. I have not got an update on where that aspect of the investigation is at.

Senator JACINTA COLLINS-I am assuming you can take that on notice and give us that update.

Commissioner Keelty-Yes.

Senator JACINTA COLLINS-I, like Senator Faulkner, would have further questions depending on what that update might contain, particularly questions related to the nature and character of the investigation conducted by the AFP in Indonesia on that point. One example, to give you some guidance in terms of the depth to which I want to follow this through, is that we had some media reports as to the arrival of one of the ships that collected survivors from SIEVX, and coordinates where they may have been collected from. I am interested in whether the Federal Police ever followed up those reports, whether the Federal Police ever followed up the second ship that we understand collected one survivor and three bodies, and whether we have coordinates with respect to where that ship collected those people and whether they corroborate the report of the other ship, as well as what further work has been done to conduct a proactive investigation as to where this tragedy may have occurred.

Commissioner Keelty-Can I just clarify something? Are you saying that your information is from newspaper reporting?

Senator JACINTA COLLINS-That particular element of it was. I cannot quite recall, off the top of my head, where the element about the second ship came from. It is certainly referred to in the report from the Select Committee on A Certain Maritime Incident. If the Federal Police know differently, obviously the Senate would like to hear that.

Commissioner Keelty-We would like to answer your question. The starting point for that would be the source of your information. That will help us come back to the committee with a response.

Senator JACINTA COLLINS-The source of that information is in the report from the Select Committee on A Certain Maritime Incident. The newspaper report that I am referring to was a discussion between a journalist and the harbourmaster at the port that the ship subsequently returned to. I would like to know whether the Federal Police have conducted an investigation to that level of detail. Another element of your evidence on an earlier occasion was that the Federal Police were interviewing survivors in Australia. I would be interested in the detail of those investigations. I can understand why, in some respects, you may not be able to nominate the individuals, but I would certainly be interested in how many survivors you interviewed. My concern is to see how thoroughly we have sought to ascertain the detail of this tragedy and where that ship actually sank. I do not think there is anything further we can pursue on that until you come back on notice with a progress report on that issue.

I am also interested in what work the AFP officers in Indonesia may have done to ascertain details of the number of victims in the SIEVX tragedy and details of who they were. Is any of that information with anyone present from AFP at the moment?

Commissioner Keelty-It is not with me tonight, but we will endeavour to get that back to the committee.

Senator JACINTA COLLINS-Okay, then let me be a bit more precise on that point as well. We understand from an email within DIMIA that the UNHCR and/or IOM on 24 October last year were aware of approximately 210 of the people involved in this tragedy. I would like to know what knowledge the AFP has as to the individuals that may have been victims of this tragedy, and what role the AFP played in collecting that information.

Commissioner Keelty-We will get an answer for you.

Senator JACINTA COLLINS-There has been some questioning as to whether there was and is a list of the passengers. It is reasonably understood that these ships never included manifests, but survivors obviously were aware of a certain number of the passengers. With the AFP involved in some of the interviews with survivors, both at the time and then later in Australia and/or in the process of building cases against Qussey and others, I would like to know what knowledge you have of any lists of those that were involved, and the status of those lists.

Commissioner Keelty-We will provide an answer to the committee.

Senator JACINTA COLLINS-The final issue I have is in relation to the ministerial direction to the Australian Federal Police on people-smuggling activities. The details of that, as they exist on the web site, were provided to the Senate recently. Was there any attachment to or further detail of the supplementary directive of September 2001?

Commissioner Keelty-Not that I am aware of, but I may stand corrected on that. I am certainly not aware of anything other than the ministerial direction itself.

Senator JACINTA COLLINS-So apart from the statement that the AFP should also ensure that it provides an effective contribution to the implementation of the government's whole-of-government approach to unauthorised arrivals and that this is one of the special areas of focus, there is no further detail to the directives that the AFP have received in this area?

Commissioner Keelty-Could you give me the date again?

Senator JACINTA COLLINS-It was 27 September and signed by Senator Vanstone.

Commissioner Keelty-Yes. There is a supplementary direction under section 37(2) of the AFP Act that talks about special areas of focus. In addition to the criminal activities identified as special areas of focus in the 25 February 1999 direction, it says, 'The government expects the AFP to give special emphasis to countering and otherwise investigating organised people-smuggling. The AFP should also ensure that it provides an effective contribution to the implementation of the government's whole-of-government approach to unauthorised arrivals.'

Senator JACINTA COLLINS-We have the same one.

Commissioner Keelty-That is a supplementary direction.

Senator JACINTA COLLINS-Yes. I am asking whether there was any further directive to that supplementary.

Commissioner Keelty-No.

Senator JACINTA COLLINS-Was there an attachment to or further detail of those directions?

Commissioner Keelty-No.

Senator FAULKNER-Before I go off to another committee, Minister, you would have heard the question I asked of the commissioner. Are you able to throw any light on this? Are you aware of any practice to have tracking devices placed on suspected illegal entry vessels, for whatever purpose-it might be for the safety of the people on board or whatever?

Senator Ellison-I will take that on notice. Offhand, I am not aware of anything in relation to a tracking or listening device-operational details are not conveyed to me. But I will check to make sure that that is the case, and I will get back to the committee if it is any different.

Senator FAULKNER-I appreciate your taking that on notice. And, Commissioner, you are not aware of any such practice?

Commissioner Keelty-I am sorry; could you repeat the question?

Senator FAULKNER-I am just following through on my question to Senator Ellison. Just to be clear, were you aware of any practice to place tracking devices on people smugglers' boats-that is, suspected illegal entry vessels?

Commissioner Keelty-I think I undertook to get that information on notice.

Senator FAULKNER-I appreciate that, but I was asking whether you were aware of any such practice?

Commissioner Keelty-I have undertaken to get the answer for you.

CHAIR-The commissioner has taken that on notice.

Senator Ellison-I have taken that on notice too. Offhand, I am saying that I do not think I have been advised, or I am not aware, but I will take it on notice and get back to the committee.

Senator FAULKNER-While I appreciate you have taken it on notice, you have also indicated that you are not aware of such a practice.

Senator Ellison-I have said it with some qualification, but I am not involved in the operational aspects of it.

Senator FAULKNER-To the commissioner I am asking directly whether he has any awareness of such a practice, to which I think the committee is entitled to an answer. I appreciate that further questions of detail may be appropriate to take on notice, but I want to ask again of the commissioner whether he had any awareness of such a practice.

Senator Ellison-Madam Chair, that question has been taken on notice and the commissioner has made it clear that that is the situation. I think we can take it no further. The inquiries have been conducted as far as we can take them.

CHAIR-Thank you for that, Minister. I think that the commissioner has, in relation to both aspects of Senator Faulkner's question-

Senator FAULKNER-With respect, Minister, all I am-

CHAIR-Senator Faulkner, let me finish. I think the commissioner has indicated that he has taken both aspects of your question on notice. That is his answer, and he will provide you with a response.

Senator Ellison-I do not think you can say that, because I have answered the question in one way, the commissioner is duty bound to answer it in the same way. I am in a very different position.

Senator FAULKNER-I am not suggesting that for a moment. I respect the right of witnesses to answer questions any way they will, but I do think a question that is framed in the way I have framed my question as to whether or not the commissioner is aware of it can be answered. Either the commissioner has an awareness of it or he has not. It seems to me an odd response to take it on notice. That is the point I am progressing at this stage. I have indicated that I will come back to the further detail and progress it, but the issue of awareness seems to me a straightforward matter.

Senator Ellison-I have just indicated myself that it is not, because I have just given a qualified answer. Just from my situation, I know that many things come across your desk, some of which you take notice of and some of which you do not. In the interests of accuracy, I have said that I am taking it on notice to go back and check. I have given the committee a preliminary response, but the commissioner is quite entitled to take this question on notice. It goes to a matter of some detail and sensitivity. He has taken it on notice and inquiries are being made. I really do not think we can pursue this much further.

CHAIR-Senator Faulkner, both the commissioner and the minister have now made their respective positions in answer to your question quite clear several times.

Senator FAULKNER-With respect, Madam Chair, it seems to me that a question in relation to awareness of such an issue is something that can be answered. There may be issues of detail that can be followed through, and I have indicated that I am happy to do that, but I do not understand why an answer in relation to broad awareness-or lack of awareness-of such an issue cannot be indicated to the committee.

Senator Ellison-As I said, I think it is in the interests of accuracy. It is only reasonable that a person giving evidence before a Senate committee wants to make sure that the answer they give is accurate.

Senator FAULKNER-But I am not asking a question of detail or great specificity; I am merely asking about general awareness, and that is why I hoped I might be able to receive an answer to that question.

CHAIR-The commissioner has indicated the method by which he intends to answer it, Senator Faulkner, as I think the minister has made it reasonably clear. I am not sure how much further we can progress this now.

Senator FAULKNER-Is the minister able to give the likely timing of the response? The commissioner may be able to say that; I do not know.

Senator Ellison-Which answer are you talking about? I have taken this on notice too.

Senator FAULKNER-I know, but the commissioner indicated a little earlier that he is likely to get some response. I think the intent of his answer was that that would perhaps be at some stage this evening. If I am wrong, he can correct me about that. I am merely asking now, because I have to go another committee, if there is any indication about the likely timing; that is all.

Senator Ellison-I understand attempts are still being made to get in touch with the people in Indonesia. That is being done now.

CHAIR-The committee appreciates that, Minister.

Senator FAULKNER-The committee secretariat can let me know.

CHAIR-Yes, Senator Faulkner, in your Finance and Public Administration Committee.

Senator Ellison-We still have some time to go, so hopefully we will meet with success.

Senator FAULKNER-You may or may not; I appreciate that.

Senator Ellison-There is a time difference; it is earlier over there, so it is not so bad.

Senator FAULKNER-Yes, but people are busy, Minister-

CHAIR-I am sure the Federal Police will continue to pursue making the telephone contact and we will advise you.

Senator FAULKNER-Given that my question is whether the commissioner has a general awareness-

CHAIR-Yes, I understand what your question is.

Senator FAULKNER-Hang on. Given that my question is whether the commissioner has a general awareness of this matter-that is, whether tracking devices have been placed on suspected illegal entry vessels-I am not sure how much this will be able to be advanced since that I am asking the commissioner a question about his own awareness. How that can be referred to other people I am not sure. That is what I do not understand. That I do not comprehend. Others may; I do not. But, anyway, if the commissioner is unable to assist me and it is going to be dealt with in this way, so be it. But I do not know how taking it on notice and referring to people anywhere, whether it be inside this room or outside it, will help. With the best will in the world, I do not know how they can assist me with that second question I have asked in relation to the commissioner's general awareness. It does sound rather illogical. I think you would probably agree.

CHAIR-I note your views, Senator Faulkner.

Senator JACINTA COLLINS-When we previously discussed evidence related to the SIEVX and other SIEVs, one of the difficulties that you took advice on and that constrained your ability to provide information to the Senate was various investigations and cases that may be afoot. Have any of those investigations or cases since been resolved?

Commissioner Keelty-I will get an answer on that for you. I might need to know the actual cases that you are referring to. But it might help you that I now have advice on the issue you asked me about before, about Abu Qussey and SIEVX. The AFP has sought and received advice from the Attorney-General's Department that it is not possible to prosecute a homicide brief-which I think I raised before-because of the lack of ability to prove jurisdiction. However, a brief of evidence is being put together for Migration Act offences for smuggling five or more people in regard to the SIEVX voyage.

Senator JACINTA COLLINS-Does the lack of ability to prove jurisdiction relate to the lack of ability to prove where the SIEVX sank?

Commissioner Keelty-That is correct.

Senator JACINTA COLLINS-So you are able to tell me that the concluded view is that we cannot prove where it sank, but at this point you have taken on notice the detail of how that conclusion was reached.

Commissioner Keelty-For the purpose of a prosecution, we would have to prove beyond reasonable doubt that we were able to prosecute within a jurisdiction.

Senator JACINTA COLLINS-Yes, but were it proven beyond reasonable doubt that the SIEVX sank within our jurisdiction then presumably that case could proceed. Is that correct?

Commissioner Keelty-That is hypothetical. I am saying that the advice we have received is that it is not possible to proceed with a homicide brief because of the lack of ability to prove jurisdiction. However, it is possible to prosecute under the Migration Act offences for smuggling five or more people.

Senator JACINTA COLLINS-And what I am asking is: in relation to the homicide brief, is the lack of ability to prove jurisdiction solely related to an inability to prove precisely where the SIEVX sank?

Commissioner Keelty-I would have to take that on notice and find out what was in the correspondence that went to the Attorney-General's Department, upon which they based that decision.

Senator JACINTA COLLINS-That fits in the same sense as my other question, which is: please detail the nature of the investigations to ascertain where precisely the SIEVX did sink and then, further to that, what other factors were relevant to a lack of ability to prove jurisdiction. So you have taken that on notice?

Commissioner Keelty-Yes.

Senator JACINTA COLLINS-With respect to other cases that may or may not have been afoot back when you appeared before the certain maritime incident inquiry, I do not think we ever got from you the detail of what investigations and/or cases you felt might constrain your ability to answer questions at that stage. So we are probably in your hands as to which investigations and/or cases you might have been referring to then.

Commissioner Keelty-I would have to go back and refer to my previous evidence to put it in context with what I was saying at the time.

Senator JACINTA COLLINS-If it refreshes your memory, I think it related to the advice you had from the Clerk as well. We do not know what particular cases you had in your mind at that stage, but we obviously respected that you did not want to compromise the potential to pursue any people involved with particularly the SIEVX tragedy. With respect to what might have been one of the relevant cases, the case in relation to the inquest regarding the two deaths on SIEV7, can you apprise us of your understanding of where that case is at?

Commissioner Keelty-We will have to take that on notice. We do not have the detail here. Was it the SIEV7?

Senator JACINTA COLLINS-Yes. Perhaps in that context you could take on notice what investigations and/or legal cases relate to the milieu of issues around the various SIEVs-I think we got up to No.10- during the period of our investigations in the certain maritime incident inquiry. In that sense, we may eventually get to a picture of when that particular predicament has then expired and we may be able to get answers to some of the questions we could not get answers to from the AFP during the certain maritime incident inquiry.

Commissioner Keelty-Yes, Senator.

CHAIR-That was one question, Senator Collins! We are going back to the annual report, Senator Ludwig.

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